geo
Yul Brynner
Posts: 86
|
Post by geo on Sept 17, 2003 0:12:18 GMT -5
There is probably no one that knows the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway:
Why does Tim sometimes swap lyrics in a song (permanantly) for live versions... thereby nixing the rhyme? For example, in Born of Frustration:
Album lyrics-
What can we build our lives upon
The walls are stone- no solid ground.
whereas he has them switched in every live version I've ever heard to "no solid ground, the walls are stone" which doesn't rhyme (or... well, be at least close to a rhyme).
Also, he does the same with the last four verses in Runaground where he mixes them up so they don't rhyme anymore.
What gives?
|
|
|
|
Post by Poster Saint on Sept 17, 2003 22:14:48 GMT -5
I thought Tim was singing "no altar stone".
I haven't checked with the song archive but that's what I heard in all live versions I've heard of BOF. Ever since I've been hearing it in the album version as well.
As to your question, maybe Tim prefers his new versions to what he wrote in the past. A James song is never truly "finished", it evolves.
|
|
bon
Whiteboy
This is NOT a comeback it's a Way Forward
Posts: 520
|
Post by bon on Sept 18, 2003 4:03:23 GMT -5
Have to admit I was in two minds about the words in the BOF coda. But after repeated listening it is most def. ' no altar stone'. Which makes contextual sense as an 'altar stone' is what forms the basis of our beliefs. The foundation rock.
As for swapping, yup Tim did it all the time, Johnny Yen, Sound, Protect Me, Tomorrow etc.
But after all he wrote the lyrics he can mess 'em up if he likes!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Poster Saint on Sept 18, 2003 14:20:40 GMT -5
Have to admit I was in two minds about the words in the BOF coda. But after repeated listening it is most def. ' no altar stone'. Which makes contextual sense as an 'altar stone' is what forms the basis of our beliefs. The foundation rock. As for swapping, yup Tim did it all the time, Johnny Yen, Sound, Protect Me, Tomorrow etc. But after all he wrote the lyrics he can mess 'em up if he likes!! Agreed completely. Also, I think in Tim's case, as opposed to many other singers, when he changes words I think it's intentional 99% of the time. I think it's absurd that when most vocalists aren't faithful to album versions that it's widely regarded as "messing up". |
|
|
|
Post by saysomething on Sept 18, 2003 14:51:34 GMT -5
I disagree, he cocks it up big time sometimes, just watch the tomorrow mpeg and also the runaground one which I'll put up at the weekend and see what I mean. We were at TFI when he did Runaground and we were laughing and there's a bit at the end of the verse where he looks at us, smiles and pulls his head back in mock disgust at himself.
|
|
cat
Hero
Posts: 314
|
Post by cat on Sept 18, 2003 14:51:43 GMT -5
Actually, either "world of stone" and "altar stone" would both make perfect sense; it fits either way. I never can decide what the proper lyrics to BOF are. I've heard so many live versions, I think Tim may have sometimes changed the lyrics slightly.
I have occasionally seen Tim flub lyrics, but rarely. I agree with Poster Saint here: I think most of the time it is intentional. That is one thing I love about listening to bootlegs with different versions of the same song over a long period of time: you get to witness the evolution of a song.
|
|
geo
Yul Brynner
Posts: 86
|
Post by geo on Sept 19, 2003 0:19:48 GMT -5
I double checked on the lyrics for BOF on Dave's site before posting but still stuck by what I though the lyrics were "the walls are stone, no solid ground" .... which, of course, I am probably completely wrong. I always figured it meant there was no solid ground to support the stone walls that we are building as our life. No foundation. Think of the lyric before: "What can we build our lives upon?" then follow it with "The walls are stone - no solid ground." Anyway, that was my thought on what he said.
However, I still don't get the mixing up of runaground:
It was written to end:
She's moving on, the love is gone, you left the door wide open.
She's moving on, the trust is gone, the anger's felt not spoken.
It got too old, was too controlled, could have gone on forever.
Her love is gone, she's moving on, when she said now you never.
It would be odd to consciously mix up the 2nd and 3rd lyrics and screw up a pleasant little rhyme progression. But then again, Tim is an odd one.
|
|
|
|
Post by saysomething on Sept 19, 2003 4:20:05 GMT -5
It's definitely altar stone. The Japanese version of the album had a lyrics booklet with it.
|
|
geo
Yul Brynner
Posts: 86
|
Post by geo on Sept 19, 2003 19:45:24 GMT -5
Like I said... I knew I was probably wrong. But when I sing it, I ain't changing my mind!
|
|
|
|
Post by saysomething on Sept 20, 2003 8:19:09 GMT -5
Hey, I used to improvise bits when I sang along at concerts. I particularly used to love the bit near the end of Come Home where he occasionally sang "never said I loved you, never said I loved you". It fitted so well with the song and the rest of the lyrics that I usually used to sing it.
|
|
|
|
Post by saysomething on Sept 20, 2003 18:29:57 GMT -5
Interestingly on this thread, someone mentioned Crash on the 11 O'Clock show. I got this on video today, and it is less than 2 minutes of it over the end titles, but there's one bit where Mike and Tim are singing together and Tim gets the lyrics messed up and Mike's singing them correctly and it looks and sounds really odd because of the mix.
What do people make of the Runaground TFI that we were discussing earlier?
|
|
|
|
Post by Poster Saint on Sept 21, 2003 1:40:31 GMT -5
As for the "Runaground" mpeg, he definitely screwed up when he sang "might I suggest you find a softer place to small", but when I said I think he intentionally changes lyrics, I meant examples in which it happens multiple times, like some of the additions he's made to "Johnny Yen" or "Sound" over the years. They would vary slightly from gig to gig but he's been consistently inconsistent in changing certain parts of certain songs and I think it's entirely him feeling these respective changes do the songs justice and are 100% appropriate. Of course he slips up once in a while, but don't we all on occasion?
On the subject of "Runaground" once again, I wish they played it more often because I love the guitar work. I don't play guitar and have no idea how difficult this particular song is, and Jim said on the DVD how they have to keep things simple most of the time while jamming or else everyone would be lost, but they certainly redeem themselves by having several guitars simultaneously playing in most of their songs. The studio version "builds" more as the song progresses though, in most live settings they really rock it up, and I must say this is one of those cases where I prefer the Best of version, but that doesn't diminish how refreshing it is to see them play this.
Note: it's 3:30 am and this post may or may not make any sense.
|
|
|
|
Post by pedrovaladas on Nov 1, 2003 4:28:42 GMT -5
That's the best about james! It's unexpected, you know the lyrics but can still make a fool of yourself singing it because you don't know what's coming, it's massive, it's beautiful!  Tim himself said that he got like 89% of the lyrics right.... GETTING AWAY WITH IT ALL MESSED UP... yes they do get away.-...  |
|
Tim himself said that he got like 89% of the lyrics right.... GETTING AWAY WITH IT ALL MESSED UP... yes they do get away.-... 